LEADERSHIP THROUGH TRANSITION:

Former President Eduard Shevardnadze Reflects on the Fall of Communism and Recent Georgian History

Interview by Paul Sonne

Columbia University

 

Paul Sonne: What is your legacy?

 

Eduard Shevardnadze: In the first place, the most important thing in which I played an important role is the end of the Cold War. Number two, the unification of Germany. The beginning of the democratization process in the Soviet Union. And the warming of relations between socialist and capitalist nations.

I became convinced that the idea of constant revolutions and a peaceful coexistence could not coexist simultaneously.

 

PS: When did you realize this?

 

ES: I was the leader of the Communists, and I could see everything from the inside from 1972 onwards. Everything had to be changed. Everything was centralized in the Soviet Union, and that was a problem. There was not enough leverage or independence.

Before I became the head of the Communist party in Georgia, I was the interior minister of Georgia for seven years. When I worked on the inside, I saw that there were things rotting and decaying that you couldn’t notice from the outside. 

PS: Describe your relationship with Mikhail Gorbachev.

 

ES: At that time, Gorbachev and I were in the same delegation and we were friends. I was the Minister of Foreign Affairs and we were part of one team. Today, our relationship is only official. The only contact we have is when we congratulate each other on birthdays. I have to specify the reason why our relationship changed. I had information that a counterrevolutionary coup was being developed against Gorbachev. I had exact proof, very reliable information. I had informers in the military and in the intelligence departments. I tried to warn him that the counterrevolutionary attack was being developed, but I could not convince him, and I don’t understand why. The counterrevolutionaries had a powerful army. And they were based 100 kilometers away from the Russian White House in Moscow. The session where I gave my resignation speech was the shortest speech was I ever gave.

Therefore, when I gave the speech about my resignation, the crowd gave a standing ovation. The people actually knew more than the government itself about what was going on in the nation.

 

PS: Did your views with Gorbachev differ?

 

ES: No. There was no difference of opinions. Gorbachev, Yakovlev and I were the initiators of the perestroika and the democratization process.

When I resigned, my colleagues and I created an international association for democratization. Then, Yakovlev and I formed a democratic reform party. It became a very popular within half a year. The entire intelligensia became members. This is partially detailed in my first book, and it is in the second book too.

The book will be published in Germany.

 

PS: Can you describe Georgia’s relationship with Russia?

 

ES: The relations are difficult today, but this has happened before historically. Everything began with Georgians exporting falsified wines, fruits and vegetables to the Russian market.

 

PS: Is that actually true?

 

ES: It is a fact that Georgia was exporting falsified products. I advised our president to meet with Putin and to negotiate with him, but not to go there empty-handed. Saakashvili should provide a guarantee to Putin that no falsified products will be exported to the Russian market.

 

PS: Is this related to the fact that Russia wants to put pressure on Georgia for becoming a more democratic state?

 

ES: Part of the tension is caused by the falsified products. But there are conflicts within Georgia – in Abkhazia and in Tskhinvali – and there is a difference of opinions in Georgia and Russia.

 

PS: What does Russia want in the end?

 

ES: In the end, it all goes back to the Treaty of Georgievsk. Starting with the treaty of Georgievsk, Russia was practically the owner of Georgia and at that point took away Georgia’s sovereignty. Russia owned Georgia and there was no more Georgian independence, and Georgia had to obey the tsar.

 

PS: Did you ever feel discrimination as a Georgian in Russia or that Georgia should not have been part of a Russian empire?

 

ES: No. I never felt discrimination, but there was one group of people. These people were both in the Parliament and in the Central Committee, who really did not want to deal with me.

 

PS: How did being Georgian play a role in the collapse of the USSR? Did you sympathize with the plight of the republics as a Georgian?

 

ES: Officially, I could not make such statements. On the inside, I did feel that the nations should be freed. I felt like the Soviet Union would collapse sooner or later, but I was actually wrong in my calculations. At that time, I thought it would collapse in ten to fifteen years, but it collapsed much sooner than I had thought.

 

PS: Why did you return to Georgia?

 

I was doing very well in Moscow. I lived well in Moscow and had a nice flat. I was the head of one of the most respected parties, the party with the brightest future. But there were delegates from Georgia who were coming to me to tell me that Georgia was disintegrating and that I was the only person who could help.  The situation in Georgia was terrible. There was no parliament, no government. There was only a military council that was ruling Georgia.

 

PS: Did you think that a resolution was impossible?

 

ES: No. My arrival was absolutely necessary and no one else could have done the job except for me. There was a military council ruling Georgia at that time. There were five members of the council, and I obtained a seat on it. Two people on the council – Jaba Ioseliani and Tengiz Kitovani – had served prison sentences from 15 to 20 years each. But even they wanted me to come back to Georgia. Jaba Ioseliani was especially active in lobbying for my return to Georgia. I didn’t want to take the job, but my people made me come back.

The plan was this. First, Georgia had to be united. Second, Georgia would initiate democracy and free market reforms. Third, to carry out land reforms, judicial reforms, and so on.

 

PS: If you had not come back to Georgia, what would have happened?

 

ES: I’m not sure. What would have happened would have been nothing good. My friends James Baker and Hans-Dietrich Genschersaid that if I wanted their help and wanted them to recognize an independent Georgia, I would have to conduct elections and form a legitimate parliament. In May of 1992, I appointed the parliamentary elections. I scheduled elections for October. These were the first elections in the independent Georgia. Several elections were held afterwards, but these were the most fair elections in Georgia.

 

PS: How are you different from President Saakashvili? What has he done well and what has he done badly?

 

ES: I would advise you to talk to Mikheil Saakashvili about that. There are big differences between him and me.

 

PS: Like what?

 

ES: Age for one. I am almost 80 years old. We don’t really have that much of a relationship. I decided to resign on my own volition, and I decided to give up the government at my own discretion. I have only met Mikheil Saakashvili once since then, at the funeral of my wife.

 

PS: What did you advise him to do with regard to Russia?

 

ES: With regard to Russia, I advised him to go and meet with Putin to discuss the issues at hand. He was not able to meet with him. But sooner or later, this meeting will happen.  The most important thing is not to negotiate with Moscow empty-handed.

 

PS: If you could pass on one piece of advice to the leader of a country, what would you say?

 

ES: To continue the path that was defined at the end of the Cold War. We ended the idea of constant revolutions, and leaders should continue that path and form friendly relationships between nations.

 

PS: What did you feel when the Soviet Union collapsed?

 

ES: The system changes. The system had to be changed for sure. 

 

PS: What about Yeltsin?

 

ES: At this time, when the counterrevolutionary forces attacked the White House, Yeltsin was at his peak.

 

PS: What did he do right and wrong? What should he have done?

 

ES: Let’s begin with the things that he did right. He defended the progress of democracy, and he defeated the counterrevolutionary forces. The disagreements between Gorbachev and Yeltsin played a big role in the subsequent developments.

 

PS: Which side were you on?

 

ES: My position was the position that I had before. I was for speeding up of the process of ending the Cold War, the democratization of the Soviet Union, and the unification of Germany. Perestroika, and so on.

I would also like to mention that one of my biggest achievements as the leader of Georgia was establishing good relations with the United States at a very early stage.

 

PS: How did you do that?

 

ES: Through personal relationships. Also, there were principles that united us. Democracy, market economy and so on.

 

PS: How did you feel when the Berlin Wall fell?

 

ES: I felt what each of the Germans felt. It was a feeling of great happiness.

 

PS: As a leader, who were your role models when you were younger?

 

ES: Stalin. He won the Second World War. He defeated the Nazis. Also, Roosevelt, Churchill, and Thatcher. I believe that’s enough.

 

PS: Which of their traits do you find admirable?

 

ES: If I describe all the traits, I’d have to write a new book.

I’d like to begin with Churchill. Churchill I did not know, but I have read literature about World War II that describes him. I believe that World War II would not have begun if Churchill had taken the correct position in the first place. But afterwards, he fixed his mistakes, and Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin became allies.

 

PS: In the end, was Stalin a good or bad leader?

 

ES: You cannot talk about Stalin that way. There is a lot of talk about Stalin’s mistakes. People love to talk about Stalin’s mistakes in their free time, but nobody knows better than I do what was acceptable and what was unacceptable during that time. What I know is that if it were not for Stalin, it is quite possible that Hitler’s Germany would have won World War II.

At the same time, I know that there were purges during the Stalin era, and many innocent people were punished. My wife was the daughter of a military colonel. They took her dad one night and executed him.

If someone in a person’s family had been executed or punished, that person had no right to marry another person who was a member of the Communist Party. It was illegal. I decided to marry Nanuli even though it technically was not allowed.

 

PS: Do you believe that the Rose Revolution was a coup or a revolution?

 

ES: At that time, I called the Rose Revolution a coup, and issued a state of emergency. But what is a coup? Afterwards, when I was returning home in my car, I was thinking, “What constitutes a state of emergency?” I was the chief of staff and the army was under my control. There would have been an armed confrontation in the coming days, and of course, the army would have crushed the resistance, and blood would have been spilt. People would have died. This could have spread to the regions, and a civil war could have started. That was a big danger if the state of emergency hadn’t been issued. This was a coup.

I chose to step down and resign. I still had one year and eight months  .

 

PS: If you could do one thing over again, and change it, what would you do differently?

 

ES: If I could do everything over again, I would do exactly the same thing. I followed the path of Democracy, market economy, freedom of the individual, freedom of the press, and other principles. I remained faithful to these principles.

In the end, I’d like to add one thing. Georgia would not be an independent state without the help and assistance of the United States. The US has offered Georgia more than $1.5 billion in aid. The US trained the Georgian Army and created the military.